You’ve told yourself a version of your money story where your credit card balance, your bank statements, and your savings account balance or lack thereof is your fault. The story says if you were more disciplined. If that one thing hadn’t happened. If you just knew more about money you’d be further along. You’ve tried the budget, the app, the fresh start on the first of the month and something still isn’t moving the way you want it to.
The problem was never your discipline. It was never the math either.
In this episode, I’m sitting down with Heidi Vanderwerf and Marjorie Jacqueline Miller therapists and co-founders of Kennedy Counseling Collective right here in D.C. to talk about what’s actually underneath your money patterns. Not the numbers. Not the budget. The emotional story that’s been running on autopilot and making every financial decision harder than it needs to be.
If you’ve ever felt like you know exactly what you should be doing with your money and still can’t make yourself do it, this conversation is going to name something you’ve been carrying for a long time.
In this episode, you’ll learn…
- [02:09] How to navigate money problems.
- [05:06] How to talk to your coach or therapist about money.
- [10:10] Coaching and therapy as a long-term investment.
- [13:35] How to find the right therapist and coach for you.
- [18:26] Overcoming the shame around money conversations.
- [20:07] How to recognize your own patterns.
- [26:17] How to destigmatize asking for help.
- [37:55] The value of human support vs A.I.
Tune into this episode of Money Files to learn how to balance your finances and mental health and take back control.
Are you ready to start asking for help with your finances? Apply to work with me, and let’s start working towards your financial goals.
If you loved hearing about balancing finance and holistic wellbeing, check out episode 186: What Really Happens in a 5-Month Money Coaching Partnership.
Transcript for “What’s Really Underneath Your Money Patterns — A Conversation With Two Therapists”
Intro: Hi, and welcome to Money Files. I’m Kiena Newell from Wealth Over Now. I work everyday with professional women and solopreneurs to help them get out of financial overwhelm and shame so they can experience more flexibility and ease with their finances. Are you ready to gain confidence and learn to manage your finances intentionally? Tune in and grab financial tips that will help you master the way you think about and manage your finances.
Keina: Hello, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Money Files. Today, I have Marjorie and Heidi here with me, and I’m excited because they are actually therapists that are local to the D.C. area. But I feel like my work as a financial coach intersects and overlaps therapy. So I wanted to have a conversation today. But I’ll stop talking and I’ll let the two of you introduce yourself.
Heidi: Well, thanks for having us on.
Marjorie: We’re excited. We really like your podcast. It’s been helpful for us personally. So I’m Marjorie Jacqueline Miller. And we’ve had this private practice together for over eight years. And I have to look at her like it’s our anniversary. It’s been eight years that we’ve been married, right? And yeah, we see the whole developmental spectrum from kids to adults, couples, families.
Heidi: My name is Heidi Vanderwerf and we’re in the Petworth neighborhood of D.C. And we have a team of about 15 therapists here on Kennedy Street. And, like Marjorie said, we really work with a whole family system. And I think that part of having a family, being a family in D.C. as we are ourselves raising families here is talking about money, especially right now with the economy and with job losses and changes just being real. And people are talking about money more. We’re hearing about it more, especially on the news. So this conversation feels really relevant, maybe more now than it has been in the years past.
Keina: Well, that’s really interesting. What would you say has been like your experience? And maybe I’m assuming maybe it’s the last year given our like political climate, especially here in D.C. and like job loss with federal roles. But just from like a therapist perspective, like what if some of those being mindful of clients, of course, like how is the dynamics in your client relationships changed when it comes to talking about money?
Heidi: Yeah, I think it’s come to the front. Yeah, really.
Marjorie: We’re always mindful of the outside climate and thinking through how do we need to talk about money with clients and clients will bring it up to us. But money is one of those topics like sex or drugs where the therapist has to also be ready to bring it up because people don’t always talk about it. And so in this particular case, we’ve talked about, okay, each individual therapist thinking about what might a sliding scale look like for clients who really needed to continue the therapeutic relationship or how do we keep a client going when they lost their job? Or I mean, and also then there’s the personal aspect of it, talking through what’s going on in their own life, not just outside of the therapeutic relationship, too. But we have to be available to talk about it within the therapeutic relationship. Otherwise, there’s an elephant in the room that’s not being addressed when we’re talking about the client’s finances or their personal situation.
Heidi: Yeah, because part of the work in therapy is like, okay, you’ve lost your job. So like you’re also paying for therapy. And so we got to bring that conversation into like, is this working? What do we need to do to adjust so we can support you both in therapy, but also obviously outside of therapy, too, as you navigate a new financial situation?
Keina: Yeah, it’s very, very interesting times, especially with the number of people that have experienced job losses in the area. I feel like I’ve talked to a lot of potential clients that have been either impacted by the furlough or their jobs. They’ve changed since, what, January of 2025 to present day, April 2026. So I’ve definitely helped some clients through some job losses as well. And being able to say, alright, so this was the plan and these were your expectations. But now what do we need to address that feels most pressing to you? Just to pivot a little bit, but still on the same topic. I’m curious, you talking about the whole therapeutic relationship, like how does money generally come up in a therapy session? Like I know how it comes up. I mean, obviously with me for a financial coach. But when you’re talking to current clients or maybe if somebody is listening and they have a therapist, but maybe they don’t even know that like, oh, I could like lean into my therapist about money. But like, what are some of the ways that that conversation emerges?
Heidi: Yeah, I think it’s pretty unique for a client to say, I want to talk about my relationship with money or like I need to talk about my finances. That still feels like taboo, maybe more so than even sex would feel taboo and talking about with a therapist. So I think for us as therapists, there’s some responsibility to asking those questions, even when there isn’t a job loss, even when there isn’t something new or alarming happening just as a like overall wellness. We talk about spirituality. We talk about, of course, relationships all the time. We talk about self-care. We talk about childhood. Let’s also as therapists, make sure we’re asking that question and being ready to talk about it and to know how much to talk about it and then when to send them to financial coaching like yourself. So I think a lot of work of becoming a therapist and being a therapist is doing your own emotional work so that you can help clients that you’re not being triggered. And I think that’s going to be the same with money, too, is like if you’re as a therapist working and not okay with your own money, you’re going to have a hard time supporting emotions for a client around their money.
Marjorie: Well, and even not just your money, but your relationship with money. And I think that’s what comes up a lot in therapy sort of subtly. You might hear a lot of anxiety about money, even if there are resources there, or there might be anxiety if there are not resources and just kind of digging into, how far back does this go? Does it go back even before you were born? Is this something that was learned and how much of this is a survival skill that can help you and how much of this is something that we can work on in the therapy room? And the helpful part of the sort of like, I’m having a difficulty in real time is when a financial coach would be helpful. And then sort of the legacies around money is when we’re kind of digging in there.
Keina: It sounds like you guys have a very holistic approach. I’m curious in your intake process, are you, like I’m imagining the life will, are you guys familiar with the life will, like all the different sections, like your spiritual, physical, financial? In your intake process are you checking in with people in all of these like different buckets of their life? I know that sessions potentially can be client led. But how do you make sure that you kind of have this holistic approach when you are working with clients?
Heidi: Yeah, we are. We are asking that on initial intake forms and training our team to ask those questions. But you’re not going to talk about all of it in the first three sessions. You got to decide what’s sort of most pressing for some clients who avoid that conversation about money. It’s on the therapist to bring it up later or to look for it. I was thinking back about how clients have brought it up subtly over time. It can be in like caretaking. If you have dependents or you’re in a sandwich generation, you’re also caring for aging parents. That’s a good opportunity for a therapist to sort of slip in and be like, okay, how are the finances around that? Like, how are you navigating that? Another one that I hear frequently is with online shopping, which I know you talk about a lot on your podcast. I’m like purchasing a lot and unable to return when wanting to return. Just sort of a lot of like hiding, purchasing from partners, that kind of talk. So we can also sort of like pick up on things that are coming up in other parts of somebody’s life. And then kind of tag it to come back to as well along the therapy journey.
Marjorie: And then because we’re a private practice, we’re also talking about money from the beginning in terms of our personal relationship with our clients and their money. And this is an investment that somebody is making in themselves to come see us. And we know we don’t take that lightly. We know it’s important.
Heidi: It’s a sacrifice. It’s an investment in yourself and your well-being and changes you want to make. In the same way that I know you see yourself as that, too, from how you talk about it. They’re making an investment to do work with you that, you know, pays off because of that work. And the same way we feel if clients come and work with us and they’re paying us for our services, that they will and should feel better. Whatever that means for them, whether it’s daily functioning or whether it’s healing that needs to be done over time.
Marjorie: So that we’re also checking in and we’re encouraging our therapists to check in over time. How is this going? Are you getting what you need out of this? So there’s both of those kind of through lines.
Keina: I mean, when you are investing in yourself, you definitely want to feel like you can see like what I would call an ROI, which I think sometimes in the coaching slash therapy world, it might feel a little bit intangible. And being able to work with clients and help them see like their before and after approach, basically of how did you once handle a situation like this and how are you handling the situation right now? And it’s because you’ve actually had a healthy space to be able to process and to learn new coping skills. I actually had a client who she sent me a voice note over the weekend. She’s like, Keina I want to tell you, she’s like, I know you help me make a budget, but like that’s not even important right now. She was telling me that she was out and about and she’s like, usually I would pass by a coffee shop and I would be like, hey, I need a little five dollar croissant. And she’s like, I told myself, no, you don’t need a croissant. Like that’s actually another option here. And she’s like, before working with you, I never would have like actually interrupted myself like wanting their croissant.
And she’s like, I was actually thinking about for my daughter, who’s been alive for eight years, how important it’s going to be that she sees a mother that can say no. She’s like, because already in marketing, I think she said like there’s some perfume commercial or something that comes on. And she was like, they’ve seen it so much. And there’s like dancing in the commercial that her daughter’s like, mom, I think I need that because it smells good. And she’s like, you’ve never smelled it, you’ve only seen the commercial. But like the influences, I say that to say as an example of I think probably we have similar experiences with clients where they’re able to reflect back like the meaning of the work that you’re doing together, because they did take that like first investment step, because when you’re doing something that is seemingly intangible, but then being able to see the tangibles in your life, it feels really good.
Marjorie: Yeah, that’s a great way of putting it.
Keina: I’m going to like shift just a little bit, but I’m thinking about people that are looking for therapists. And maybe someone’s listening to you right now. And they’re like, oh, I could talk to a therapist about money, right? Like that is another option. But also the daunting task of how do you even find a therapist? Like what should I be looking for? Should I go to better health? Should I go to growth therapy? Like what are the qualifications to know whether or not there is going to be this person that is able to support me with like checking in on my own mental health? So I’m just curious from your perspective, like what advice would you have for someone who’s looking to have a therapist that can support them holistically? Definitely talk about the money topics. Like what should they be looking for? What questions should they be asking? Like if you were giving advice to somebody on the market for a therapist?
Marjorie: I mean, I think people do ask us this, right? Because they know what we do. And one of the things that I say that people don’t always know is that you can, most therapists offer a consult, like maybe 15 minutes. What we offer is a video consult, so a virtual consult. And so you can actually see if you’re a good fit with this person, or you start investing in that relationship. And you can also ask questions like, we have a lot of common questions. We even have like blogs that we’ve written about the common questions that people have, like how long will this take and those kinds of things. So you can ask all those questions that you have top of mind. But I think maybe some of the ones that people don’t think about are like, what’s your approach? How do you believe people change?
That kind of tells you the style that the therapist might use. And then you can go from there to decide, would we be a good fit to work together? Because there are a lot of different approaches. And there are some that are more direct and more the therapist telling you sort of about your thought patterns and those kinds of things. And then there’s more what we call experiential, which is more sort of collaborative and processing in the room. So thinking like, what’s my style? What would be a good fit for me? And actually talking through what it might look like in the session with a therapist.
Heidi: Yeah, I was going to say something similar to is like, not everyone who’s looking for a therapist has capacity to be introspective first. But if you’re symptomatic, you’re not functioning well, like really just start therapy. Like, let’s get you baseline with whoever’s closest, whoever takes your insurance, whoever your friend sees and recommends. So there’s that level of finding a therapist. But then the other level is sort of like, yeah, if you want to invest in therapy as like self growth, healing, in the same way that they would invest in coaching versus I don’t know, tracking your expenses with you need a budget or some app. There’s like a depth there. So if you’re going to invest in therapy, thinking about do you want somebody local? Do you want to sit in somebody’s office? At least sometimes you want somebody who understands like the urban environment or whatever environment around you? Yeah, and then personality fit and scheduling fit. And then really think about the topics that you know you need to talk about even if you really don’t want to. And maybe even asking that therapist, like, are you comfortable talking about spirituality? Are you comfortable talking about money? Are you comfortable talking about gender intimacy or any whatever it is, just like asking directly? Have you helped a client like me before? The common one.
Marjorie: That’s a good question.
Heidi: Yeah, interviewing, shopping around, finding the right fit for you.
Keina: Have you helped someone like me before? Excuse me? Do you know who I am?
Heidi: Yes, exactly. Can you see me?
Keina: Yes, I need some social proof here to make sure that you’re right fit. I’m curious so just to go back to people, and I can speak on it as well from my view as like a financial coach, but when you’re working with clients, and you’re in this like therapeutic relationship, how would you support someone in bringing up a money conversation, especially my clients, I think are like perfectionists. I think there’s also some shame right there. So what are some doorways to actually bring money conversations up? Like, maybe I don’t know, you could have a therapist that pushes, maybe you don’t have a therapist that pushes, but I’m assuming that if somebody is listening to my podcast, they probably have something that is money related. So like what are some of the doorways that they could open up with their therapist in a session this week?
Marjorie: Well, I think first, I mean kind of what we were saying about understanding who your therapist is, and if they’re a good match. If your therapist truly is not judging you, then you’ll feel it. For example, like listening to your podcast, and just talking to you, I can tell you actively are taking the shame out of it. So a therapist, who’s a good fit for someone who has shame around money would be doing the same thing. Approaching someone with compassion first, and just understanding this comes from somewhere, this is about something, you know, it’s not that this person is bad, it’s just that they’re feeling out of control of something.
Keina: I guess I’m curious of, like I work a lot with clients on recognizing patterns. And I think knowing, when I say clients, I mean, like, even people I’ve never worked with. And so, like I have this whole like avatar and I could tell you all about her. And she probably would think that I’m like listening to her Alexa in her house somewhere, because I know what she’s doing intimately. I know that at two o’clock in the morning, she’s on her phone. And all of a sudden, there’s an Amazon box the next day that’s coming to her house. And so just being able to tell her, like, if I was talking to her in a session, I might say, like, I just want you to observe for the next week, not judging what you’re spending, but I just want you to pay attention to the emotions that you have around when you spend money. Like, was it gloomy outside? Was it sunny outside? Were you tired that day?
So just really trying to get her more so to connect to, this isn’t just about math, or this isn’t about you’ve always been an overspender, but I want you to build this level of awareness that is going to go with you outside of our coaching relationship. And I’m curious for your particular clients, and I know therapy is like, anybody could be in your bubble, right? But is there, maybe you have a frame that you give clients, maybe if they’re in a session, just to say, like, I want you to be paying attention to something, because you know that it might be leading somewhere else. So maybe you don’t attack the conversation initially in a session, because maybe you know the client well enough to be like, oh, this maybe feels a little taboo, but I want to put it on their radar. And or is there, yeah, just like a way for you to open the door for them to have those many conversations. Because I think sometimes people don’t know. You know something’s wrong, but you don’t know what you’re looking for until somebody can hold up a mirror for you.
Majorie: I think we approach this really differently. And to say that a lot of therapists would approach it differently. For me, I look at it as sort of, okay, what is this behavior, ultimately, underneath trying, what are you trying to get for yourself by doing that? So for example, the 2am spending, is it, in our clientele it’s possible that you’ve been ignoring yourself for a long time, you’ve been putting everybody else first, and maybe spending on what they need. And then at 2am, you’re like, you know what, I really want this thing. And you’re like, I’m just going to go for it without really thinking it through, and then feeling guilt about it, right afterwards, or the next day. And so going through that cycle, and holding both sides of that, both the impulse to get it, because you’re trying to get something for yourself. Trying to get a need met, and then the shame or the guilt underneath that as a reaction, and that both of those are trying to serve you in some kind of way. And what’s sort of the more meaningful way to get those needs met, possibly, or maybe thinking through, yes, I do want this. And I’ll decide at 9am tomorrow and say, yes, I really do want that. And I’m okay with getting it. You know what I mean? So just kind of, I think through the underneath of it, whereas you’re a little bit more of like, here’s the mirror.
Heidi: I’m just going to be more directive, and use CBT a little bit more heavily at the beginning of like, okay, that’s not a healthy behavior. I want you to be asleep at 2am. So let’s start with like, where the phone is going to live right after 9pm, and then work backwards from there. So yeah, just every therapist is going to have a little different approach to it. None is like, right or wrong, or better, necessarily. It’s just sort of like, what, it’s like, as long as you’re spending time with your money, as long as you’re spending time talking to a therapist about these things, like you will learn something about yourself, you will make changes, if you’re committed to it.
Keina: But I think the thing that I’m hearing, and maybe what I was fishing for is paying attention to behaviors, and even just clients, like what behaviors are you bringing and being open and honest in your therapy session about like, these are some of the behaviors that I see as patterns in my life and I pause before using the word normal. But like, this is a behavior that I’m not sure that I want to keep or is a behavior that serves me. And so being able to bring those different types of behaviors, whether it’s where does your phone live, because Heidi is going to be asking you about boundaries. Or like, seems like someone else is a little bit more kind, and maybe just people aren’t taking care of themselves.
So maybe that’s why you need to be up at 2am shopping. But like, just thinking about what are you doing that serves you or doesn’t serve you, which I think is one of my like philosophies in coaching, is like, there are so many things that we just do automatically that we never question. And we are on autopilot. So it sounds like in a therapy session, you can question some of the things that you do on autopilot. And are these things that I have adapted from childhood, they are adaptations I have made as an adult, or, but is this actually the blueprint that I want to live with? Or is it something I want to change?
Heidi: Yeah, here’s a little secret for any therapy clients listening right now. If you’re like in this moment, you’re like, I really, I should bring this up to my therapist, but you know that you’re going to come up with something else to not talk about it when you get to therapy, send them an email right now and just say, please ask me about my money patterns. And the therapist is used to getting those kinds of emails, and it’s okay. And then that will prompt a more direct conversation. Because yes, therapists they’ll pick up on things. And when there’s an opening, we will ask about it. But if it’s something that you know, as a client that you need to address, you want to address, you’re feeling motivated, because you’re listening to this, but the session comes around, and there’s other things taking precedent, or you just don’t feel like doing it right now, because you’ve got this $10 latte in your hand. Send the therapist an email and the therapist will ask you next time you meet.
Keina: I love that. I think that is a safe piece of advice, especially I think if you’re in a place where it’s like, I’ve been wanting to do something and I haven’t. So I think trusting your therapist with what are all the other things that they have supported you with up until this point in your life, and allow them to help you with the taboo things that you don’t necessarily want to talk about as well. Because to Marjorie’s point, if they are a safe space, then they can continue to be that safe space, even when it comes to your finances.
Marjorie: And sometimes even just talking about it with your therapist can be very powerful, just like talking about it with you, like it’s someone’s first time really talking about their own patterns with money, and not just about budgeting, or the dream of a budget or whatever it is. So just even bringing it up can be a huge deal.
Keina: No, I mean, I think that’s the most powerful part. Like when I have consults with people, I mean, they are seemingly people that literally have found me on Google, or on Instagram, I’ve never met them in my entire life. And they’re like, I’ve never talked about money with anybody. And that being a complete shift for them just to know that there’s a space that they can say the things that they think about, and or have never articulated and haven’t been able to think about. And so that right there can just make you feel like 10 times lighter, because you’re not holding that mental space. So I definitely encourage people like lean in, if you don’t have anybody in your life, like a friend, family member, how do you use your team, especially if you have a therapist or a financial coach, whatever, to have some of those conversations with?
Marjorie: Yeah, and as therapists, we can slow all of that down too, like we could start with what happens for you when you even think about talking about money, just like the body’s initial reaction. And then a whole nother road might be what happens when you think about talking about money with your partner, with your parent, all those different kinds of things. So that’s the things that we can explore and slow down those emotions and kind of help prepare for getting into the actual numbers.
Keina: I love it.
Heidi: And treat any of the symptoms. If you’re like having anxiety or panic, or feelings of depression and hopelessness about finances, like that’s the stuff we can hold in due. And I love them the idea of like, when we’ve been able to have a client with a financial coach as well, like you are the like numbers moving forward, holding that compassionate space, but it’s like double time work, because we’re holding the emotional space, the emotional work, and then they’re getting the really practical in the weeds help at the same time. And that really just kind of provides us like really lovely wraparound support and very like efficient use of time to do both.
Keina: Yeah, I would encourage anyone listening. I think sometimes there’s a stigma around asking for help. And like, I have some clients that come to me and they’re like Keina I have a team, you are a part of my team. I got you, I got my therapist, and like, they just start rattling off people. And I’m always honored to be a part of someone’s team and just like want to acknowledge the courage it takes to ask for help. But if you can get past, I’m like making this movement with my shoulders right now. But I want to name that there are like physical sensations that can happen in your body, whether you’re feeling it in your shoulders, or I feel a lot of emotions in like my stomach and my chest. Those are the ones that come alive for me. And so being able, I don’t know if the people listening, if you want, if you’ve ever felt those emotions, but when you felt those emotions, if you’ve had somewhere to process them, the literal shift that you can feel in your body is like one of the most powerful things.
And I will name that I’m not a very emotions heavy person. My business has made me emotional. I’ve had a lot of coaching around it. I’m like, oh, this is what emotions feel like. Got it. Name. Oh, okay. That’s shame. Got it. Got it. Got it. But being able to have people to lean into that you trust is so helpful. And it also expedites whatever results you’re trying to achieve, especially when you’re moving through life. And like you said, like, we can slow things down when we’re talking about what does it feel like to even have a money conversation? Or what does it feel like to have a money conversation with your parents or a partner, but that slowing down also, but there’s a book that’s like you go slow to go fast or whatever that like kind of saying is. But hire a team is what basically that whole monologue was just for you to invest in yourself and do it sooner than you think then you’re ready, because you’ll never truly be ready.
Marjorie: And I think with, I don’t know, I wonder what you think about this, Keina. But I think with money, sometimes people are sort of like, okay, when I get to a place where I’m like, feeling okay, then I’ll get help. So there’s something about some kind of start line that people feel like they need to get to. And sometimes emotionally as well with therapy is like, okay, when I’m settled, then I can start therapy, because then I can start talking about this stuff. And for both of those things, starting earlier and getting the help to get to what you think is the start line can actually be way more effective.
Keina: Yeah, and I think we know that logically, but we don’t act on it. So if you’re listening, and you hear this, this is your nudge to just do the thing. Because it’s really, I think for myself, I have to ask, like, what’s the worst that can happen? Like, what am I actually afraid of? Because I think it’s like the fear that we have, at least for myself, it’s like, okay, like a fear of being seen, a fear of being judged, a fear of like being vulnerable, but then also asking yourself, but if I can be seen, if I can go through with this, like what are the results on the other side for me? So I think looking at both sides of that equation to have that honest conversation with yourself. And you’re going to spend the money on the lattes anyway. So you might as well spend it on yourself. I talk to people all the time, like, so you can go to Cancun, but you can’t pay for a financial coach. I’m like, you can’t afford either one. But at least I know I have a return on investment. And I can help you go to Cancun the next time. And guess what? You won’t be sad when you get back because you have a credit card bill. That’s what I think is my sale.
Heidi: Two birds with one stone right here.
Keina: I think like in therapy, it’s something similar, right? Like, okay, so you just want to keep fighting with your spouse.
Marjorie: Like spending money on going back to like the 2am thing, spending money on the thing that makes you feel better in the moment maybe, as a like quick fix kind of thing. It’s a dopamine hit, but you could invest in yourself long-term and figure out, okay, why am I reaching for that in the first place? And to be able to prevent that long-term so that then you’re feeling more content in yourself. And you’re more financially stable at the same time too.
Keina: Yeah, you can have like a 10 out of 10 life they say, right? Like you can actually feel good about your life versus like buying your happiness, which is temporary. Doesn’t mean you don’t get to buy things, but it’s like, you’ll have more clarity about what you’re actually buying.
Marjorie: Right, more choice in the moment.
Heidi: And I think you’ve addressed this more recently in your podcast too, just like I do recall my mom balancing a checkbook. And I take a class in high school and learn how to, but like, I don’t know where my checkbook is right now. Like that’s not something I use anymore. And just that it’s okay if you don’t know how to do this right now. And it’s okay if you feel differently than your parents seem to feel about it. And just removing so much of a shame and that it’s a soft skill to learn. And that there are two pieces. When we talk about our finances, there are the patterns and the emotions and our reactions to those that keep us stuck. And there’s the actual numbers that need care. But if we can hold, I like to use imagination a lot in therapy.
I really think that there’s something powerful. I think you were getting to this too, Keina. It was like holding your future self. That future self that’s in Cancun, that’s debt-free, that’s got her coach to report back to. And her therapist has gotten her there to feel content in that moment while still on vacation. Like all of that, like let’s picture ourselves, our ideal selves.
And I think with a team, like a financial coach and a therapist, like you can move your timeline up to get to that place. So like, instead of five years down the road, what if it’s six months down the road? And really just using that as a motivator to take some of these initial hard steps to building the team that you need to get to your, not necessarily best self, but to that self that you’re striving for and you’re stuck.
Keina: Yeah. For you to be able to look back and say, like, I couldn’t have envisioned this version of me six months ago. Because you don’t want to wait another year and just kind of feel like you’re stuck in the same spot. Like life is too short for that to be true. Something that just came up as you guys were talking and I haven’t really talked about this on my podcast, but I’m thinking about the people that are building relationships with Claude and Chat and they want to replace having a financial coach or having a therapist, like where’s the value in hiring a warm-blooded human?
Marjorie: Laughter is one of them.
Heidi: Get your smiling face.
Marjorie: But just like thinking, I think that there are a lot of people that are like, I’m going to, I mean, it’s another type of DIY. And it’s very accessible, but I’m curious, what are you saying? Like, once again, I have not even talked about this at all on my podcast, but it just came up and just thinking about like how somebody could feel really motivated in this moment. And they’re like, okay, great. I’m going to go talk to Chat about this. And they’re going to give me a plan.
Heidi: Yeah. I mean, the first thing for both of our professions is privacy around that. Like, I don’t think you want to drop all of your numbers into Claude or chatGBT to evaluate your finances in case you drop an account number. I think there’s just some things that you don’t necessarily want dropped into AI, in the same way that you don’t want to drop all of your personal thoughts, feelings, family members, names, for a sort of assessment of things. There’s relational piece and there’s a confidentiality piece, I think a privacy piece that I think both financial coaching and therapy prioritizes and needs and demands, but also, especially in a place like DC where we’re increasingly removed from one another, we are using AI more, we’re working from home, like to have a team of people who can laugh with you, can really hold a space with you and feel connected to you. It holds a lot of value. And I think as human beings, we know that and we’re starting to see the limits of AI and there’s some like real research-based scary aspects of using AI as a therapist. We highly discourage that because there’s some safety concerns that can come up pretty quickly, not effective for that right now.
Marjorie: Yeah. And I mean, amen to all of that. And I think, something I was thinking about right before you asked this question that ties into it for me is people are so busy. I’m thinking through, as I’m talking about all of this, like, I also am guilty of, okay, I’ll put it off a little bit later. And we’re all asking, okay, how can AI help me get the millions of things I have to do done? And how big of a reach can I ask for AI to solve? Can they solve my financial issues? Can they solve my mental health issues? And I think we’re in the experimental generation where people are learning what the limits are, which personally for me, even that is scary, because I don’t want to be learning by doing the experiment. So I think just like also acknowledging that time can go on, that we can get really busy and be overwhelmed by all that we have to do. And like myself, I’m a sandwich generation person. I’m a caregiver stretched thin. So I get it like wanting to reach for those things, but at the end of the day, what’s actually helpful and nourishing for me is human contact and people who care about me and who are invested in me and that I can give that back also.
Keina: Yeah, no, I think that’s a beautiful point. And I think it speaks to, I think AI is great in a lot of capacities, but it speaks to, I feel like the way in which we outsource that sometimes it can make things even more overwhelming. It’s a simple thing that in my generation, like being able to order groceries, it sounds like amazing, but then what happens is yes, you can order groceries, but it’s really for you to be able to fill that time with something else. If you’re not necessarily getting back more time. So I kind of think about what’s happening with AI, it’s like, oh, if I can outsource another thing, then I can solve something quicker. But I think it kind of goes back to an earlier comment where it’s like, what’s the value in being able to slow down. And I think being with a therapist or a coach that you hire, they’re invested in you.
They’re not going to tell you, sorry, my memory’s full. I can’t add anything. I’ve reached my limit for today. But being able to have someone who can say like, let’s actually strip away all of the things that you feel like are really important. And let’s just take this next small step together. And so after we take this small step, we can take the next step and helping you really build that momentum versus just feeling like you’re adding something else to your plate. Like that is one of the things that I feel like is the difference in between Chat, Claude, Gemini, whoever is out there helping you right now. And they might actually, in some ways, I feel like when I’ve used chat just to brain dump about even just business ideas, I feel like sometimes I walk away more overwhelmed than I do feeling like something is solved because you have so many options. Well, is there anything that I should have asked, but didn’t ask for any final thoughts?
Heidi: I don’t think so. I think something that came out of thinking about this podcast and in our conversations leading up to it and today is just that connection piece and trusting that both the therapist and a financial coach can provide accountability and empathy and that therapy is really for primarily the emotions and like what’s happened in the past to bring you here. And that financially coaching is really about like what’s happening here with the numbers and caring for yourself and setting those goals and moving forward. And there’s overlap. Of course, there’s that gray area, but being able to do both at the same time is like, would be such a gift to somebody, but ultimately like each person knows themselves and they know sort of like where they are in those journeys and what have to discern for themselves, like where to start and what feels right for them to start. And also know that, like we know about Keina and she knows about us and she knows about the power of therapy and trusting too, that if you were to work with either of us, that we would also help you discern that when you need the other.
Keina: Oh yeah. And I mean, I’ll be like, that’s not me.
Heidi: The client pulls up their bank statement. We’re like, no, no, that’s not us. Yeah.
Keina: Different, different team member. So if somebody wants to follow you or learn more about you, where can they do that app?
Marjorie: Our website is Kennedy Counseling Collective and we have LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and sign up for a newsletter at the bottom of our website. And we also have a matching specialist, which is pretty cool. So looking for a therapist, our matching specialist will talk you through who’s the best fit for you as a first point of contact.
Keina: I love it. And I can put that information in the show notes too, so people can just grab it there. Well, thank you ladies for joining me.
Marjorie: Thank you Keina:
Heidi: It’s our pleasure.
Outro: Thank you so much for listening to Money Files. If you’re ready to take the next step to reach your financial goals, head to www.wealthovernow.com/appointment and let’s get started.
